Please join us for a very informative episode with Sydney Wong of VenturX in Montreal, Canada. We covered so much in this episode from venture capital to driving better CX to increase your business's value.
Sydney Wong is an author as well as the Founder and CEO of VenturX. Her literature work, written under the pen name of David Adams, focuses on helping others be more productive and efficient. Sydney’s successful journey of her professional accomplishments have been shaped around one thing: balance. She likes to do yoga and cook to relieve her stress and take a break from her work life. Her core values consist of excellence, altruism, and drive, all of which have helped her be successful. With the current events happening and the world being on lock-down, Sydney has been committed to helping others stay on top of their game by coming out with How To Have A Good Day, a book which guides individuals on how they can keep up their routine while being stuck at home. Furthermore, she shares her best practices on her Medium blogs and through guesting on podcasts that share her values of excellence, altruism, and drive.
Welcome to the Science of C. X podcast. My name is Steve papa's a former serial entrepreneur turned C. X obsessed expert and each week we bring you an inspiring message, an insight into how customer experience can catapult your business to soar grow and accelerate beyond what you thought was possible. We seek out experts to interview and help you on your journey to see X in the Science of C X. Well, welcome everybody to another episode of the Science of C. X. I'm steve Pappas, your host and today we're going to go down a much different path than we normally do. We're gonna be talking to Sydney Wong. Sydney is someone that really works in the venture business and you're going to learn a little more about what my thought processes as to why we're talking to Sydney and her expertise around everything to do with venture capital and some very interesting things are going to come out as to how you should be thinking about venture capital or how you should be thinking about funding in general. So help me welcome Sidney to the show. Thanks Sydney for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. Well, this is going to be an interesting and slightly different episode because we really have not talked to anybody from the venture world yet, so maybe what I could do is I can give people a little bit of your bio just so that they understand what we're going to be talking about. So Sidney wang is an author as well as the founder and Ceo of Venture X and she's done work in various parts of literature and written under the pen name of David Adams focusing on helping others be more productive and efficient. Sydney's journey has been a very successful one with professional accomplishments That have shaped around one thing balance and I think that's going to be an important component in today's conversation. She likes to do yoga and to cook, to relieve stress and to take a break from her work life. So some of the things that we're going to talk about are how Sydney views companies, because as an author and an entrepreneur who enjoys helping others by giving life advice and self improvement tips and also how she enjoys learning as much as she can. So I would imagine she's a polymath in many areas of life and we're going to ask her what area she likes to learn about and continue that process. But first we're really going to center around Sydney as an author, female Canadian entrepreneur and the founder and ceo of Venture X, because Venture X is really a conduit for startups to track metrics. So as a successful entrepreneur, Sydney likes to share the tips and the tricks that she uses to be productive and efficient while keeping an emphasis on the importance of having a balanced life. So Sidney let's jump into this because there's such richness in your bio and in your background of things that you've done and things that you like to do. I almost want to start with the pen name David Adams, how would you come up with David Adams as a pen name from Sydney Wong? Oh, well that's actually just a very typical market research kind of results. So I bought a few as tried it a few different covers and that was the one that actually resonated the most animal market, which is just the north american market, so just like, okay, well let's just do this, this is fine and the book that you wrote under that they don't have a good day. So there's lots of different tips and tricks that I put together actually from gurus of mine as well, such as tim Ferriss, the writer of the four hour workweek and as well as the tim Ferriss podcast and a lot of other teachings that I've learned over time, we really just put that together during the pandemic. Actually it was during the first quarantine. So I had a lot of time on my hands to do this and I don't think that it was something that was particularly, Oh, this is something that was on my table for so long. I really got to get this out. It was more like this is the right time and place, that this is what needs to be right now and this I think could help a lot of people. So during the first two months we sold 1200 copies and now you partnership with Polo. Excellent. We'll have to leave that in the show notes for people to pick up your book from your alter ego. Of course, let's actually jump in. Tell our folks a little bit about what venture X really is. And then I've got a bunch of questions for you. Yeah, no problem. So how venture X started was that I saw a problem that I wanted to solve just like all entrepreneurs do. Right. So the best companies are always derived from a very specific, very heavy problem. And so a few years ago I had a friend who said if I was very interested in tech and startup, that I needed to move down to Silicon Valley, which is actually where he lived. So I took that as an invitation and within 10 days I bought a one way ticket and I moved in with him, just like knocked on his door and I was like. and then I stayed there for several months and I got to meet all these great investors and entrepreneurs of all different stages and I was talking to every driver at Uber, every single dog walker on wag every person on task rabbit and I got to learn so much about all of these steps that they had towards entrepreneurship and I realized they were really suffering at that early stage where they needed so much help, so much resources and everything. And I wanted to find a way to solve that problem help early stage entrepreneurs. So I wanted to be able to utilize their business metrics. So we focus on financial runway conversion. So converting your leads into sales and engagement, the combination of retention and usage and be able to then match them with the best fit investors based on their metrics and their scores interesting. I mentor quite a few startups in various stages and I think what you're concentrating on is definitely something that always seems to come up in the conversations. But let's talk a little further. So from a venture perspective, how involved do you get in actually the valuation of these companies to because at some point they're going to need money and there must be some method that you put into evaluation too. Yeah, absolutely. So for example when we started our angel investment fund, we have set valuations that are our policies and so here is the tricky thing is that value is always in the eyes of the beholder as it is for all things in life. You could like a certain meal and I could hate it. You valued it differently than I do and it would cost the same, the same chef made it but I would hate it and you would love it. And so therefore the value has fluctuated. But when it comes to the venture side, the tricky thing is that it could be that it has nothing to do with your company, why you did or didn't get funded. You have hit that valuation range and that is first check mark and they won't tell you necessarily what the evaluation range is not going to be on their website necessarily. It's not going to be anywhere. But it is a criteria just like it is at our fund, what is counted to us here in Canada as early stage and what isn't. And then it's kind of like that whole game of, there's three ways to look at the same situations, there's your opinion, there's my opinion and then there's the truth and that is the same as the negotiation when it comes to evaluation with investment start ups and the truth. So I guess there are so many components that probably go into it and I understand the range that they have to be at a certain point in their business for it to make sense to have those conversations. But as part of the due diligence and the analysis of the business, what do you concentrate on in that early conversation? Because I would imagine there are multiple conversations that you have, Maybe you're even part of a pitch contest and there's a lot of companies that are parading for a minute to three minutes to five minutes in front of you. There's some things that you probably concentrate on and that you need to know before you even go further. It's kind of like the speed dating component. But do we want to actually date or is this not going to be the right thing? Yeah, absolutely. So even if you don't have a lot of resources, you're bootstrapping to get off the ground. You have built a certain amount of traction. You have built certain elements in your business before you have come to meet with the investor. So we can only judge you on those elements, right? Not what could be, but what also just happened. And so to me that is really important because I was trained under the whole idea of how you spend your own money is it tells us a lot about how you're going to spend our money. So what have you done with the amount of money that you have invested or your family and friends or whatever has gone through? You know, are you still at just idea stage with a lot of potential or have you spoken to actual clients that are your real customers? Have they signed anything? Have they actually looked at any kind of demo that you built, even if it's a framework, even if it's a beta or ndp, whatever the level is, what do they think of it? Can we call them up? Are they partnerships in terms of, are you revenue sharing or their partnerships? As in, this is a guy. I know there's levels of all of these things that people write on slides and as investors, it's our job to decipher what is real, what is not what is potential and what actually happened as follow on investors. We do have the advantage of seeing what the lead investors and their team has already done in order to then re evaluate that same information. So I guess at the stages that you're looking at, it's really not as much the forward thinking but in what has already happened, what has your track record from 0 to 1 bin or 0 to 5 bin and then yes you're looking at potential. But unfortunately potential is kind of a difficult crystal ball to really have. How much of it do you go back to like the typical business model where you're looking at, what is the problem that we're trying to solve? How big is the business problem? How are they solving it? They solving a better, faster, cheaper etcetera? How much of that is rooted in what you want to see? Two? That's a really great question. So a lot of funds have these keywords that I think really needs to be defined because I think that not a lot of people really know what it is emerging innovation, high technology, you know, these are just like nice words, right? These are generally nice words, that's great. But the way that I like to be very specific, which is why we built an analytical tool is really defining what those things are. So a lot of pitch competitions that we sat in on as the judge, I had to keep asking the same questions over and over again. Okay, how are you better than the existing solution? How are you five times better? Can you name these five points in which you are significantly better? You can't just be a little bit better than Uber. That's like never gonna fly. Also, that would cost so much to prove that right. You have to be five times better if you're going to be the next Uber, the next Airbnb, the next anything. And so what are you doing to make things faster and cheaper, more accessible to other markets, etcetera? How are you solving these huge problems? Because that's what it was about. It was about not just how can we get from A to B faster, That's not what the Uber model was about. It was just about how many cars are there in the world, just in the whole world and kind of looking down from that macro perspective and then us then challenging that in a new and innovative way. Just kind of being like, what are the five elements that you're doing? That's better than the current solution because it takes a lot to ask humans consumers to change their behavior for anything. Like what is your initial feeling when your friend tells you to download a new app? A little annoyed because you don't know why it's so much better for your life. So that's the kind of thing that we want to see from all founders. Let me ask you this and we're just going down kind of a list of component tree that may come up at some of these conversations. I've done hundreds of business plans in my career. And the one component that's always a very difficult one is the addressable market pick any industry, let's say I'm a technology company that sells to hospitals. The addressable market is the 6 to 7000 hospitals in the US first. Probably be a little bit different in Canada because of the way our health care is. But let's just say for the U. S. There's somewhere between six and 7000 hospitals. Maybe many of those are part of hospital systems or large provider systems. How do typical founders? I'm going to call them founders because generally that's who you're talking to. Initially founder with their CFO tagging along to validate numbers if necessary. But When they look at the addressable market, how much of that is really believable because it takes a lot to really be able to address the 7000 hospitals. That takes a massive amount of work. Yeah, absolutely. And so that answers a lot of kinds of questions such as, hey, would you be interested in funding my company? The real question is my company fungible. So it's not, if we would invest as a follow on investor, Like I said, you have to come as a group anyway, is kind of how fungible is your company to start with that? Then addresses that question, Which is what is your addressable market? How big is the market? What is the potential? Because if you really look at it from a whole, how much of the market does google, yahoo Microsoft? All of them really have like less than 10% of just like the world and then the same thing, you know, how much of the market do hotels have versus Airbnb? The actual number of what things are at the very end of the day is super small. But is that how they pitched it? No, that's not how they pitched it. So you really don't know the answer to that, but you have to do your best to absolutely understand all the waste your infant idea can grow. One example is one that we've invested in under food and beverage, but they were only targeting alcohol, distilleries and breweries and those kinds of things before, which is a very small market. So that a lot of people said no and then me looking at it and talking to the founders and working with the founders, got to understand, well, who can your potential acquirers? B then finally we got to the fact that hey, there could be somebody like coca cola that is very different from just this is a technology that is only for breweries and distilleries and all these things. This is a technology that could be for all food and beverage companies because the important thing is you're able to manage ingredients, you're able to manage inventory and timing and all of these things. So that makes a huge difference in how that plays out. One of the questions that I'd like to ask you is that in sitting through and I've sat through many pitches, I've been on incubators and challenges and judge many and there are lots of things that I see founders do wrong and they almost shoot themselves in the foot before they even get started. I don't think I've ever seen a pitch that didn't have a hockey stick for its projection. You know, you get that slow burn and then all of a sudden in three years it's going through the roof. That's what we think is gonna happen. Well, we all know that that is not necessarily what's going to happen. And if it ever happens, it happens in probably 100th of one of the ones coming out. But are there things that in general folks do wrong? And I'm not trying to make this a negative show, but for the benefit of the people listening, the pitfalls that are in front of them that they really need to shore up and they really need to do their homework on. What are the things that you would say are the best practices to move forward? I think Mark Cuban says it best, it only takes once. It only takes one win for you to have made it. But the flip side of that same quote is that it's a million ways to have lost. As in there was only like one formula like at the end of that Avengers movie, there's only one scenario you will win win and then everything else is a pitfall. Some of the most common pitfalls that I have seen is not understanding your 80 20 rule, which is prattles law of 80% of your results come from 20% of your effort and really understanding what that is because I think that a lot of time and energy is wasted on things that are not super useful. For example myself, I love doing the spotlight videos which is where we interview investors kind of like a jimmy Fallon style and we play little games with them on a podcast and we put it up on Youtube. Okay, so I love doing that. But I love actually doing that. I don't love editing that. I don't know anything else that I have to do. So then as a founder, I find people who are better at that than me, which is like a lot of people because that's how much I don't like doing it. And so reserving that 20% of your efforts and knowing how to delegate, knowing how to say no to opportunities that are not really opportunities and saying no to partnerships that don't really benefit both sides And understanding that what are the 20% that produced the best for my business last year? I'm going to double down or triple down with those and that will save you a lot of time and resources and you don't have to kind of run around. The other one is of course directly related to funding. Be careful when you're funding. Always be careful when you're funding. I was offered over $4 million dollars And I said No. I turned down $4 million dollars because it wasn't the right time. It wasn't the right people. And if I had taken it, it would be bad for all parties. And so of course it's very difficult to say no. When you feel like finally I'm being rewarded for all of my hard work when it could be something that's just in disguise. And that's not really the case. If you are meant for a certain opportunity for a certain thing, it will feel right. So your 80 20 rule and making sure that you're very careful when you are fundraising when you choose to fundraise. I think it has to be a right fit. I mean, there's a relationship there. Sometimes the fit can be phenomenal and the investors can provide doors that can be opened that weren't before. And other times I've talked to founders and they've said, I feel like I have a new boss and I don't like it because now I can't really make all my own decisions, which is why I got into business in the first place. But now I'm operating out of a shot clock that maybe three or five years where I thought originally I was building a long term business. So what you say is perfect. It's got to feel right. It's got to feel like the right thing, the right relationship. You're not going to gel with every BC or investor out there, but the ones that do work well, Really work well. Yeah. It only takes one getting documents signed while we're all working from home. Now. That's been tough. We all know that pain because we've all felt it and been through it. We built a better solution. Seeing the problem that everyone has gone through now that we're working from home to get documents and contracts signed just requires so much effort and it's been difficult for everyone. We've solved that problem with sign pdf doc dot com. Sign pdf doc dot com is your one stop simple solution to get all of your documents commented, shared and signed easily. You can even import from google docs and dropbox into a single manageable dashboard. Sign up today for your free account at www dot sign pdf doc dot com. So let me ask you another question, I guess to bring it back to our show's theme a little bit. How important in the conversations that you're having with folks about their business, about their valuation, about their direction. How important is how they develop customer experiences, how customer centric they are and what does that mean to an overall valuation for a business? If they start out as a very customer centric organization? Yeah, we could talk about Zappos, we could talk about amazon, we could talk about Ritz Carlton and all the rest of them. But if I'm starting a business today, whether we use my example earlier where I'm a technology company selling to hospitals, if I'm a very customer centric organization and I make it frictionless to do business with me and I keep the customer at the center of my universe. But I need money at some point I might come to you and I might say Sydney here's what we do and here's how we treat our customers as well as our employees. Everyone loves it here, our customers love it. Here's our track record, here's what we've done. You know, how important is that in your mind when you're having those conversations, it is definitely very important as that is a key step in our due diligence. We do call customers. I mean like you're at early stage, you have like five customers. Like we're going to call rob and joe and sally, you know, we're going to call your customers. You don't have that many. So it's definitely important for us to know that these are your real invoices. These are real customers, none of these are related to you. These are real people and that they are happy with what you do during the pandemic. Especially if you're selling B2B and you don't know if your customers businesses being affected because it could have been one of the ones that are being shut down and everything. That is something that you would have to bend pivot and change for your customers. How did you then continue to provide value? Maybe in a different way? Maybe in a temporary way? Or maybe in a permanent way to these customers that relied on you. But now I can't afford your services in the same way. Were you still able to retain people or did you lose them? Or did you find new customers in whichever way? How did it go about? Or did the pandemic is kind of like freeze you like? All of these are possibilities. So we do look at all of that as a way of how did they manage their customers? And that is giving us a great perspective on what their company values are and what we value in them as a potential investments. Because at the end of the day, your business isn't to sell a product or service your business is to build a customer. Well, let's talk about the pandemic a little bit too. I mean, how has the pandemic fundamentally changed the venture seen? There's lots of areas there that must have been affected. And I think maybe the venture world is not exactly the way it was a year ago and maybe a year from now might not be. But how has it affected you guys? I mean, we go into a recession and uncertain economy about every 10 years or so. Right. We put on a webinar venture X does every other month or so where we do very specifically advise you to no longer just be fundraising for your 12-18 months. It should be 18-24 months. You should be fundraising for two years at a time because this is going to be tough because the boost in the economy is different every time there is a recession for a lot of various factors, right? Like the last one was a housing market crisis, real estate crisis, all these things, but it wasn't a health thing, this one is a health one, so that is different as well. So we do advise them to fundraise longer if possible, and have a much bigger buffer room. So one of our ventures that we have invested in their lead investor put them on hold for a long, long time, so they had to like put all of their fundraising on hold and therefore had to find some emergency cash in themselves or wherever it was from. And so that does change their funding schedule a lot. The other thing I've noticed is that even in y Combinator, you know, one of the most famous startup schools, their startup graduates have been cut their own valuations in half to be able to fundraise quickly enough at the same schedule as though that just graduated. So you're six months ago and it's not really fair and it's just a bad timing issue. But when you are on linkedin at these webinars at these conferences and you're watching some of the most influential investors say, I don't know which one I can inject money in which one I have to kill in their own portfolios. That's a tough thing to hear. And that makes all investors all around the world more scared. So some of them are acting more scared and then some of them are seeing, hey, evaluation is really cheap right now, we're going to double down and by all of them, Google acquired a crazy number of startups during the quarantine And they can pay market price. They don't have to pay a cent above. They can even pay a little below and they were able to buy some of my investor partners as well that invested in some of these startups for, I wouldn't say a fraction of the price, but I would say if it was 12 months ago they would be paying out the nose. So that tells you a lot about how things are moving. Some people are slowing down way too much and other people are speeding up incredibly aggressively for the same reasons. Like it's black friday shopping, that's how they're shopping for some of these startups these days. Yes. And it's probably interesting to see how companies come through this. Have they reduce so much? Have they had to lay off a furlough? Have they had to go to their investors or their board for emergency funding types of things Or have they had the opposite? Have there been new opportunities that have presented themselves? Have they been able to pivot a little bit to either help with the pandemic or they happen to be in the right place at the right time to. Yeah, because as an investor, as a very proud investor of a Shopify, Canadian sweetheart company has gone through the roof. Because what they do is important for the pandemic, which is creating websites for super cheap, very easy to do live in Canada. I don't know why I still think, but all of these mom and pop shops never had a website before. They had no way to deliver groceries online because they know where to order groceries online. And so finally they have a place to turn to that's able to do all of these things. So this one was like pandemic proof. Whereas other industries, like we were just talking about need to then pivot to then be able to address the pandemic head on or they need to pivot in a different way in order to retain the same kind of customer care. You talked about a webinar that you guys do. Is that something that Any of our listeners that may be thinking about funding or maybe looking for some help with the metrics? Is that something that they can listen to and how do they get to it? Yes, absolutely. Well, you can always reach me on my linkedin under 60 wong. We usually promoted out that way through linkedin. You can also through Lincoln, send me your email, you can add you to the list to make sure that you are up to date with all the new events that were coming out with. This is specifically for founders that are fundraising for the first time or considering it and just have an understanding of what is being expected from you. What kind of questions you'll be asked, what's in this data room and what kind of things that you need to best prepare for in order to have the best success. And at the end of the day it's really up to you to decide which path forward you want. And we have a large Q and a section as well. During the webinar, there's a live Q and A. You talk about anything that you want. And some of them recently have been like, what are the other options besides equity fundraising that I can look into if this is my mystery instead. And I think those are great discussions to have? Well, I was wondering whether or not you could help our listeners out with maybe an exercise if they're thinking about it because I know we've had the question come up multiple times and unfortunately the podcast is not really a Q and A type podcast. We're going to do some episodes. That will help. But I'm wondering whether or not there's some kind of an exercise we could give our listeners that are looking for funding that are thinking about going down this path. And of course, you know, all of our listeners are probably very customer experience oriented. So they're all going to be great potential for you if they come to you and I hope you'll take very good care of them. So what kind of an exercise can we give them on our blog? We have, you know, these are the documents you need for a data room. The exercise that you must must must do before you talk to any investor is to have an honest conversation with yourself and your team by doing all of these different ones. So you will have the cap table. You will of course have the pitch deck. You'll have your customer letters and your letters of intent, your different contracts and your financial projections and all of these things. So do this exercise and then have that honest conversation with yourself and your team. Are we fungible. And if the answer is yes, when you go out of the room of your first investor meeting, they're going to ask you for this link to your file anyway. So you'll have all of it already done. Perfect. And that's something that we could give folks a link to a medium link in the article. There is a template for every single one. So you don't even have to make the template yourself. That is awesome. All right, we'll put that in the show notes. So folks, you've got an exercise if you are thinking about this, I think having this information and being armed with it ahead of time is definitely going to help you when it comes time to start looking for external funding. So I think that's going to be a great exercise. And something that various listeners are probably interested in doing one more thing that I've got for you is what's hot right now, what are the industries that you're looking at or you're looking for, you know, companies to invest in? What is that two year window starting to look like? And obviously you're looking around and you're saying, okay, I'm looking for some of these things because maybe they're in our audience, That is great. Actually, we just had the most recent article that came out, which is five emerging startup in technology trends of 2021. So the first trend, of course, is how we're going to support more remote working. What is important about that is not just invest in zoom and watch the zoom stocks go up. That's not really it, it's really what is happening with co working spaces? How are you? Re utilizing that space and even the people who are able to go back to the office a few days a week. How are you really coordinating that? Because you're not, Each company is doing its own thing. Some people are really just doing it on excel to make sure their social distancing And that's insane because that's not how you should coordinate a 5000 person company. And then what are corporations really doing in order to accommodate these kinds of future trends of people taking more flexible schedules and spending more time with their families having more balanced life And all of these things that they are now used to because we just finished 2020 and everyone in the world has experienced some form of that as well as, you know, form of working from home. But being productive and having a stable lifestyle, having a stable mental health mind frame. So all of these things are great trends and they have not been addressed, but we've done it for like a year. And are there new technologies that really came out? Or we just relying on the old ones that are already out while we're still relying on the old ones that already out. But there needs to be more that comes out in order to enhance our lives and our experiences. The next one is the advancement of 5G. So of course, we are hearing about the war West versus East who is going to win? Canada just really waits and watches. And so how is that going to affect the technology going forward? Are we building all of the hardware to be five G efficient? Yes or no? And then what's going to happen to the old ones? Because I don't know about you, but I have an ipad one and I could not be more mad at a piece of hardware than that because when I got it, I never figured because they don't tell you that at the beginning that is going to be useless very soon. And then every single thing is going to be built like later on and that's going against a trend that is happening in the gen z or even like late millennial, which is how are we being more sustainable? How are we being more environmentally friendly? Should we have a landfill full of ipad ones? Probably not. And then how are we addressing that as a society and as people, So 5G has great potential to of course go through a our technology VR technology. But also we can address a lot of different avenues when it comes to 5G as well. Besides the obvious augmented reality and virtual reality and how that affects businesses and health care and things like that. And then of course autonomous delivery. So we are still waiting for that absolute 100% remote driving everything autonomous, not just a great awesome conferences, but to take your grandmother to go see the doctor, how is that really going to come into play? Because when I was living in China and Hong Kong for a few months, like aging population is the most dramatic thing. And the only people you cannot get to adapt to technology are people of certain ages who will not get into a self driving car to go to a doctor, you know what they need to and then their caretakers don't have the time to do all of these things. Right? So autonomous delivery, autonomous driving, of course it's necessary during the pandemic. But how do you sustain that necessity throughout? And how does it solve other problems around the world? Of course the last one just being last mile delivery is always like the biggest problem right now, I can tell you that in my building, the last mile delivery is just Knock on the front door of a 2000 person building and just running away. That's all they do. If people wait outside my building, they can just get food for free every hour you have to do is be faster than the elevator and you're good. That's funny. Well, those are some great tips on areas for our entrepreneurs out there. They're thinking about what is next? I think also customization is a big one. So I had this great conversation with an angel investor, I Healthtech, So he's out in Dubai and instead of just like being, hey, this is what I'm allergic to. I'm gluten free or I am allergic to soy or I'm allergic tuna or whatever it is, right? You also don't have the advancement yet in medicine, but we should have had it by now and that's the kind of thing, right? Like you only know you're allergic to penicillin when somebody gave you penicillin, but you should probably know before that. Yeah, I think I found out I was allergic to shrimp after eating shrimp. Exactly, yeah, that's the kind of thing that's like preventative versus like after the fact it's not as good. Exactly. Well, Sidney, this has been great. I want to thank you very much for joining us today because I've learned a ton from our conversation and I hope our listeners have taken some great notes and those that are thinking about the future of their organization. If venture is in their path or if they're thinking about how important customer experience is to that eventuality, I really want to thank you for coming on and giving the advice that you have to all of our listeners. And I hope we see you again someday. Absolutely. You too steve, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Well, that's another episode of the science of C. X. 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