Michael leads the Customer Experience team at ASAPP. He works with customers like JetBlue, American Airlines, and Dish to help them implement AI solutions that augment and automate human work, empowering people to be their best. Prior to joining ASAPP, Michael served as SVP of Customer Care at Samsung, and held executive CX leadership roles at Electronic Arts and Apple.
Connect with Michael
Website - https://www.asapp.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-lawder
Twitter - https://twitter.com/michael_lawder
Email - email@example.com
you're listening to the science of C. X. A podcast that hopes to inspire business owners and leaders to learn new techniques and turn prospects into customers enter customers into raving fans. My name is steve Pappas. I'm known for my relentless pursuit of all things customer across my career. And also in my six startups, I've had to learn how to make decisions in business that customers really respond to. Let's spend some time together and help your business soar grow and accelerate. Well, welcome everybody to another episode of the science of C. X. As always, I'm your host, steve Pappas. And as we get through this second season, I hope you're noticing that we are really working hard to find experts in all areas of customer experience so that we're touching upon subjects that are near and dear to your heart and today I think it's going to be one of those that we're to talk about contact centers. We're going to talk about agents and especially we're recording this during customer service week. So we really want to touch upon some things really regarding the customer service agents and what they've been doing, especially through the pandemic to keep us all going, make sure that product is moving and things are taking care of the way it needs to be, especially with how many agents are really in the workforce around the world. So today we have Michael lauder and Michael comes to us from a company called ASAP and there's gonna be some interesting things that we're gonna talk about here. So I hope you're paying close attention, taking notes if you're not driving in the car and we're going to cover a lot of material here as this episode unfold. So help me welcome Michael to the show today, Michael, welcome and thanks for joining us on the science of C. X. Thanks steve, really excited to be here and especially during national customer service week, it's a great time to be talking. Yeah, absolutely. And we have a lot of contact center leaders that are in our audience and we are constantly getting questions around how do I get more visibility for the contact center at the C. Level or at the board level? And unfortunately, there's a tendency for a lot of companies to look at the context center itself is just a cost center when you and I both know it is so much more than that and we'll talk about that. But first let me give folks just a little bit of your bio. So they understand where we're going to go with this. So after spending 25 years running customer service and experience teams for very large brands like Apple and Samsung and electronic arts, Michael now leverages his experience in the contact center industry to help align SMS products and services around its fortune 500 customers and the end users such as the contact center agents. So let's jump into this Michael. I think when we talked last, we talked about actually how many people in the U. S. Workforce are actually contact center agents. Let's start there Surprising to know that more than 2% of the US workforce actually works in call centres. So over three million jobs are in the context in our space across the country nearly that amount overseas and in different places around the world. So it is not talked about often. But this idea of companies hiring people to represent the voice of their brand and engage with their customers is actually big business and globally it's a trillion dollar business. So it's much bigger than we think. And that's why we're focusing as a company on this space because it's such an exciting opportunity. And I think given that its national customer service week, that's an underserved part of this ecosystem. The agents on the front line serving customers every day and where I started my career and something I'm really passionate about. It's interesting, you know, as you say that because I can't remember the last time that I picked up the phone to a context center to just say, hey you're doing a great job. Most of the time anybody that calls the contact center, they've got an issue, they've got a problem, something's not working, something's broken, something wasn't right on their statement, the billing is incorrect, there is an issue. So I'm wondering whether or not folks in general that have to call a contact center, are they already predisposed when they pick up that phone to, oh my God, this is just going to be one of those days and I just got to get through it. Hopefully I don't get bounced around multiple people. Hopefully they'll be able to help me sometime in the next few days. People don't say in the next few hours or a few minutes, hopefully they'll come on the line soon and I'm not going to be stuck in that listening to that god awful music for an hour and being told that I'm 43rd in line. You know, maybe we could start from the fact that they got a tough job. There's no question about it. And I think here especially that we're recording this in customer service week, we should shine a light on how hard the job is and how much they need. Not only a little bit of more respect, respect within their own organizations, but they also need technology to help them do the job more efficiently and easier so that they don't take on the stress that the world is giving them. It's a really hard job. And I think it's why the sort of pop culture view of the call center agent is what it is and the long waits and the frustration and all of the stereotypes that go along with that you're talking to, you know, on average 25 people a day who are frustrated or upset or unhappy with whatever service or product they're spending money on And they've reached you to fix it and you're talking to someone like that 25 times a day often with antiquated technology in not being provided the tools and processes and empowered to resolve issues. I was talking to A ceo of a Fortune 500 company recently and he told me that more than 50% of people that contact the contact center leave with their issue unresolved. So more than half of the customers who are going through the nightmare of having a call to begin with don't get their issue resolved. And it is really not the agent's fault, although they are often to blame. It is a lack of empowerment and lack of tools, lack of simplistic technology that makes it easier for them to do the job that they need to do and to focus on speaking as someone who was a call center agent steve. Like that's really all agents want, they want to be given the ability to help every customer they talked to Solved whatever problem it is that they have and the frustration that agents have and the reason that they leave is largely rooted in their inability to do so I often describe the call center Agent as a blend between the 911 operator and like an emergency technician and an ambulance. These are high stress, high complexity roles. Unfortunately, I hope this changes and I think it will also low paying jobs and I think that because of all of that and their inability to have the tools to solve customers problems, it really makes it tough for them to do their jobs. And I think just lastly to your point about the ecosystem between these three entities, the customer who's calling the company, who is operating, the people answering on the other end of the line and then the agents themselves, the real opportunity, the real underserved part of that is the agents. There's been a ton of focus on reducing costs. There's been a ton of focus on delivering a better customer experience. But the poor agents who are essentially responsible for delivering that experience have gone forgotten a little bit. So again, not to keep pounding on this, but I love that it's national customer service week I love, but this week is about agents that were recognizing our customer companies and their agents for that hard work that they're doing all week. So that really is the challenge of this business and technology actually is really giving us an opportunity not only to give agents better tools, but to elevate their status in the organization and to make them more specialist as things like machine learning and artificial intelligence come into play and help automate some of those more simple issues. It makes perfect sense is you're describing it. Something comes to mind and the question that I'm sure people are wondering right now is what's the win. What's the employee satisfaction of an agent? And I'll give you a kind of a parallel, I'm a hack in golf, right? I stink. I think it's a good day when I have that one good shot and I didn't go through all six balls that were in the bag. So that one shot is what I come home and I tell my wife about ah you should have seen it went straight, you know, and I know very little about golf, but I'll go out and I'll have fun with the guys. But the one thing I remember and I walk away with and I come home and talk about is that one shot And I got to think about agents that if it's true that 54% of their customers, they didn't resolve something and 100% of their customers have a problem and are frustrated when they clock out at night, what do they remember of the day? And you've got to think, you know, you talked about turnover, that's going to lead to turn over. Its, how many days in a row can I do this, can I really do this for five days a week for 40 hours a week and somebody's telling me when I'm going to the bathroom and somebody's telling me whether I'm doing a good job or not because the recording said this and some QC person is coming down or a coach is coming over or supervisors telling me this? So I'm wondering from an employee satisfaction perspective even before we get into what can be put in place to help them all. It's at the end of the day when they clock out, what do they remember of the day? It's a stressful job and there is a great deal of satisfaction and gratification for talking to somebody who is frustrated or upset and being able to fix their problem and make them happy. And It's almost like this very binary, either delight as an agent in solving someone's problem or unfortunately more often than not, the frustration of the customer translating into the frustration of the agent not being able to solve the problem. It is a hard job and I mentioned 9-11 operator earlier. I mean it is probably a can do some of these high stress, really difficult jobs to add to that. And to your point, they are not empowered often. And I have walked into many contact centers where you're looking at the sea of people in this flat giant space and you see hands popping up like they're a child raising their hand potentially asking for permission to do something. And it is not really the way you set up a business to be successful because of these things. You're seeing contacts and organizations often with very high attrition rates again as talking to a ceo of a large, very successful company been struggling lately. And I said, I bet you've got 100% attrition, which in contact center business means once a year you're turning over your workforce on average. And he laughed and said he wishes he had 100%. And so we're seeing sometimes 200 or 300% attrition, labor market being what it is, it is costing more and more to hire these people and then retrain them as they leave. And most importantly this is actually taking care of your agents is good business and here's why we know and we have all who are in this space, we have looked at the data employee satisfaction or in this case agent satisfaction equals customer satisfaction, happy employees equal happy customers. And if your agents are frustrated, it's just going to translate back to your customers and create an experience that you really don't want to be representative of your brand and so lots of challenges to overcome, lots of opportunities to improve. I actually think with all of the challenges of the pandemic, there are some silver linings in terms of being able to deliver a more digital and more successful engagement with customers from companies across many different industries. I think we're seeing some of that take place and there's an opportunity to see honestly, to elevate these agents have this sort of dream that eventually there are agents making six figures a year and highly specialist, highly valued engineer level context center resources. And again, I think machine learning can empower them and support them and be able to make that a reality and that's part of what we do, what has happened, part of what I always remember being an asian is it's a tough job and a really important one for companies. I mean I completely agree with what you're saying as you describe the attrition level. If you turn it into dollars and cents, if a ceo or the ceo or head of service, whoever is on top of the contact center does not take a hard look at the contact center and not look at it as a cost center. However, if they are not empowering and if they are not providing the right tools to the agents to do the job right the first time that's costing the company money and if they're not well under 100% attrition, the investment made in individuals to do the job is not getting realized because if you think that you're hiring somebody in, you've got a cost for hiring, you've gotta cost for training. But then if they don't last six months And your time to competence is 9-12 months, you never actually realized the investment that you made in that person. So the smart move is to figure out how to look at a strategy for your contact center provide the right incentive, give the right empowerment and make sure that the tools are in place because historically, you know how contact centers operated, right? If there was a problem, they throw more bodies at it. You know, the traditional way is okay, call HR up and then call training and say, hey, we've got to get another batch of people in here and that's not the way to do it. The way to do it is to create careers career paths, have a good training program, a management training program, but underlying, you gotta make sure you've got the right tools. So let's talk a little bit if you don't mind about how a SAP looks at the problem fundamentally looks at the problem and then how it Tries to solve the problem at the core. So that a contact center can operate a peak performance, higher levels of productivity, higher levels of employee satisfaction, which will translate into more customer satisfaction. Yeah. First of all, I'll tell you a company we work with every time they have to re hire an agent it costs them about eight grand. One company to work with has literally 100,000 agents. So you can imagine if you've got a high attrition rate, what that's going to do to your cost to your point earlier, the hiring costs, training costs all those factors and in fact the very first thing that companies should do is as you suggested, really be thoughtful about investing in people to drive that christian rate down. You can repurpose the cost you're spending on hiring and training to really hire and retain great people? S app is one of these interesting companies been around for a few years in the market for a couple. We have a lot of really big companies that we support. It's a very large research and science based organization, tons of patents, really kind of writing the book around natural language processing and machine learning and using that technology specifically in this space. And specifically focused on the agent for me as someone who's been in the business most of my life on the other side of the equation And actually who started as an agent, it's amazing to see all these phds and smart people. 400 people at this company who would literally wake up every day and there are one thought is what is the agent doing and how can I make their lives better, how can I provide them with a better experience? One that makes them more satisfied with their job, that makes them stick around longer, that allows them to solve more problems and be more satisfied. And one of the funny stories that I heard when I first joined a SAP is that some agents actually send us christmas cards every year thanking us for the technology that we put in front of them because the truth is that most contact centers are focused on reducing costs and they are perceived to be cost centers that we talked about at the very beginning and because of that the tools are not best in class, the user experience. They have to interface with our very complicated. Oftentimes they're using multiple screens, double digit systems and a shop really came along and didn't really pay attention to any of that and really focused on how should this work? How should customers and companies interact? What if customers could talk to big brands, big giant monolithic companies in the same places that customers talk to their friends and family and how can we use ai native machine learning technology and capabilities to augment the work the human is doing so they can be provided with what to say and what to do at the exact right moment based on the conversation happening in real time. And I often equate this to being in a Tesla that's on auto pilot. You know, there's still a driver, they're still keeping it on the road, they're still making decisions on where to go, they're still turning the turn signal but the car is doing a lot of the work, a lot of the cognitive load so the agent can really focus their energy on the customer and making sure that they're satisfied and making sure they're issue is resolved and it is really transformative in terms of the impact when we deploy with a customer steve, we're not talking about 10% improvement in customer satisfaction are 30% improvement and handle time. We're talking multiple factors of improvement, two X three X improvement in performance and inefficiency and satisfaction. I'm saying this hopefully with some credibility because I remember, you know, lots of technology vendors will promise you the world I used to be on the other end skeptical about these results and I've just seen them over and over again with a job that's why I'm here. And so it's really about using science and technology, Really cutting edge emerging technology to make agents better to increase the value of agents and to give them technology that allows them to do their jobs more effectively. Mhm Hi this is Steve Pappas and welcome to another two minute thoughts. So today I wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you can easily diagnose your customer experience issues. Many people reach out to me and they say steve, I don't know where to begin. I don't know how to diagnose if we have problems, if we don't have problems, where do we begin? So I tell them the first thing you want to do is look at the enterprise as a whole list, all of the departments and then determine the departmental level issues that may be occurring in there. But then you should rate them for further targeting to say, okay, is this department really something that we need to tackle first or can we move that to a next phase. So you want to kind of rate them but you follow that up with a deeper dive into that targeted department you want to work on. Maybe it's the contact center maybe it's tech support. Maybe it's something else right then think about well what does that department do? What types of functions does it perform? What types of calls does it take? Which functions are calls cause more pain, more cost more friction. Now you should have the beginnings of a diagnosis. So you should be able to not only understand which part of the business you need to tackle first from a C. X. Initiative but you also know what part within that department you should tackle first because either it's costing you money, it's causing the customer friction or it's causing overall pain and needs to be addressed quickly. So that's a quick synopsis of how you can diagnose your C. X. Issues. And I hope you'll listen as we reveal our simple C. X. Methodology which will have all of this built into it and we'll make it very straightforward for you to work with. Thanks again for listening to another two minutes thoughts. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know our listeners know that we don't bring anybody on that. We have invented a bit. So they all know that I believe in this whole heartedly that we need to fundamentally do something different for the agents to be able to solve problems more efficiently and better for their customers because really I would look at it this way. You know in your shoes you're selling to your customer who is then helping his customer or her customer. So you're the B to B to C. Kind of a scenario. And by thinking about the end customer works backwards to help the employee do a better job. That's where the rubber meets the road in this case because I think that there's never enough done on these things. So let me create a scenario in your mind. Now now I come out of the technology world too. And I've built contact centers and I walk into about 100 contact centers a year aside from the pandemic. So I can usually walk into a contact center, I can look around in 60 seconds, I could tell exactly where the problems are. I don't even have to talk to anybody. I could just scan the place and no, but Coming out of the technology world, we built contact centers in the 80s and the 90s to solve the problems that we didn't foresee. So when we built software and I was involved in building lots of software over the years, if we planned out our product and our service really well up front, we didn't need much contact center work. If we started in the case of when Vcs came in and exit strategies came in and you got to get to market and you've got to get an M. V. P. Out to market and what have you then the contact centers started growing well the context centers were needed and they were here and they moved forward. But I've got to equate an agent and I've run a lot of software companies. I've hired a lot of customer success managers since moving into sass and before SAS things were A. S. P. S. Right? But Sass and cloud has really brought forth the concept of a customer success manager. Someone that is there to help the customer to a level of success and I'm sure you have them in your own organization to. But if you think about a contact center that is taking calls for health care, it's scheduling surgeries in a hospital, it's providing dispatch information for telco information or whatever it is technically that agent is operating as a customer success manager at that moment. They are the face of the company. They are what the customer sees hears and thinks about as being their lifeline, the one that can help them or not and how they're going to feel about the company moving forward. But the point I want to make is that I equate a customer service agent as that level of almost a customer success manager. Now in many organizations, customer success managers are either part of sales or they're part of retention. They're not part of service. They don't come under the service banner more often than not. So that means that they're helping dr money, they're helping to drive the money in the organization on increased sales, extending contract terms and making sure that the customer buys more and increases the customer lifetime value over time. So I just wanted to put that out there just as I thought that I see them as at that moment there the customer success manager and some agents may be adopting that, but that's really what they're doing If I put it bluntly well. And I think that when you walk into those 100 context centers, a lot of what it comes down to in terms of whether or not they're operating at the right level or not is whether or not those agents are empowered to be customers across managers. And I often look for smiles on their faces and if I don't see a lot of smiles, it probably means that they're not perceived to be that value center. They're perceived to be this cost center. And I will tell you that whether or not they're responsible directly for generating revenue or not, every single agent is talking to a customer no matter what industry is a marketer is a salesperson and every single great conversation they have increases that lifetime value increases that retention. I have studied this time and time again and it's always proven to be true and the opposite is true as well. If they're not able to solve the problem or deliver a good experience, customers, lifetime value and retention are at risk. I think particularly since you mentioned health care, when you're dealing with those types of critical services, there's a lot of emotion goes back to a previous point. We were discussing when you're dealing with your own health or your own money or the insurance for your home or car or whatever it might be, these are not just entertainment for you. These are things that affect your livelihood and I think are particularly important in terms of creating that customer success manager mentality. So you're absolutely right. That that's how they should be perceived. And what's really interesting about the day job I have now and part of my day job is managing our customer relationships is that it really is no different than being an agent. I mean, we are managing the relationship with large enterprises who as you said, have agents that are supporting their users. But in fact, many of the concepts we're discussing here are directly applicable, whether it's a, B, two, B, two B or B two C or whatever it might be. That's really fun for me to be able to apply my experience to the same paradigm and still sort of be in the customer service business if you will. But you're absolutely correct. It, that is the right attitude to have when you're managing a workforce that's quite large and supporting your customers and when you don't see those smiles, I think that's a failure of management or a failure to move away from the traditional thinking and start to retool and rethink for the future because the call center of the contact center today is different than it was even two years ago and certainly five and 10 years ago. So we as management and business leaders have to look at it differently and that's where things are kind of stuck a little bit and not everyone has gotten to that point yet because they're still thinking traditionally and they get stuck in the past rather than moving forward. So let's get a little more into the Asep approach to. So if I'm an agent, what would I be looking at? You know, how do I interact and how do I engage with the customer differently than I did if I step was not part of my day to day work and it varies based on customer in which solution they purchased. But in general it is whatever kind of conversation you're having, whether it's a digital conversation through, you know, a messaging channel like apple business chatter, google, business messenger or WhatsApp or whatever or it's a phone call or any other kind of conversational channel where you're interacting with your customers. A SAP is listening to that conversation in real time in the case of voice, it's also doing best in class transcription in real time. So it's essentially taking the voice signal and converting it to digital text and it's actually analyzing in real time. It's not doing keyword searches or anything like that. It's actually doing conversational machine learning algorithms and analysis to figure out what to say and what to do at any point in time. So when an agent is having a conversation with a customer, the assad platform is recommending what they should say to the customer and it's not the customer just said this and let's respond to this. It's literally looking at the whole conversation. So if you're having a problem with your network router and then you ask a question about connection, it has all of that context to be able to provide the right response next. And then it's also guiding the agent on what to do so what to say and what to do. It tracks all of that in real time and it guides the agent. As I said, just like a Tesla would drive on autopilot. Most of our customers are seeing about 70 to 80% depending on the customer and their maturity, 70-80% of every conversation is machine augmented. That means that the machine is recommending an action or something to say And 80% of the time the agent is simply accepting it. This obviously drives tremendous amounts of efficiency. We see as I said 2-3 x efficiency gains. But what's interesting is that in every deployment we also see significant improvements in customer satisfaction. There's a number of reasons for that. But one interesting reason that really touches on a lot of what we've been talking about is it reduces agent effort. It reduces the cognitive load on the agent. This means they can really focus on the customer. They can do more of the soft skills and the empathy and the supporting of the customer. The machine is doing a little bit of the heavy lifting and we see significant improvements and not just the reduction in costs, but also the quality of service that is being delivered. Because the less effort an agent has to go through to solve an issue, That means the less effort a customer has to go through to get their issue resolved. And we know that customer effort is one of the biggest drivers of customer satisfaction. And so the agents oftentimes they're using our desktop and agent desktop. It is designed by this amazing design team here that is not trying to design an enterprise software solution. They're trying to design an experience that is the same quality of experience that we experience with the best in class experience. Companies on the consumer side. So we believe that creating tools and experiences for agents there is easy to use as they are for customers is a really powerful way to get at not only a more efficient experience, but higher quality service as well. And so that's really the core of what it does. It's kind of, this is coming from a practitioner who is practitioner first in sF employees Second, it's kind of magical to see it at work and it is not about eliminating contacts. It's not about eliminating people, it's about giving people tools to increase their value and give them the opportunity to be better at their job. That's really the focus of our company. Where does it fall in the categories? Because if you think about when you're marketing to today's contact center leaders, you know, if somebody is building a new context center, they're going to say, okay, I've got to have a phone system. It's probably a cloud based phone system today. I need a crm system, I need a learning management system, I need a workforce management system, I need a knowledge management system. How does it fall into the mix now? And how do you position it that it really needs to be part of that list? It's an interesting question and it's sort of, we're in this interesting transitional period and if I could start just by going back to something you said earlier that leaders need to really challenge the status quo and rethink how they're operating these organizations. I think that is an imperative to not accept. And by the way, I'm part of this equation to not accept that this is the way it's always been that you're going to go partner with a bunch of outsource providers hire a bunch of cheap labor offshore, give them two weeks of training and unleash them as the voice of your brand. Like there's not a formula for success and not something we should continue to do and I would encourage leaders to be willing to take risks and try new things and to really challenge the way things have been because the opportunity is to really transform not just your organization, but transform how companies think and putting the customer at the top of that priority list. And the way that I would think about technology is like a SAP. It's a little bit of a transitional period for technology in general and customer experience because I mentioned earlier that part of what a chef does is it tells agents what to say and what to do. And if you have a system that is learning from the best agents, outcomes and then using that knowledge to provide it in real time to all agents who are supporting similar customers. Then you start asking yourself the question, what do I do with my knowledge management system? Do I integrate it into that system? Do I need a knowledge management system? You start to think about things like case management. Do I need a case management solution anymore? I'm providing asynchronous conversations to my customer. They can come in and out whenever they want. Does it really make sense to give them case numbers and start managing these interactions this way? So I think the line is a little blurry in terms of where you think about this kind of technology and what it ultimately displaces in your technology stack the way sf looks at it is we look at this as a new category essentially, which is we call it customer experience, performance, platform. And it's really focused on, we've been talking about it on providing technology that improves the performance of the humans, that are doing this really hard work every day supporting all these brands customers and it's really focused on enhancing the performance of those humans and giving them the tools they need to solve problems and do their job effectively. That's really what we're focused on. Part crm, part engagement platform, part knowledge management solution, part quality management, park workforce management. There are a lot of components to the technology, but at the heart of it is focused on improving performance of those humans doing the job. And this is the kind of technology that is a category definer. You know, it's one of those things where we're ahead of the curve a little bit and I think it would be wise for practitioners who are running these organizations just to go educate themselves on what's out there and how they can use it importantly not to build the future or to build a new spaceship, but to really think about the operation they're trying to manage and the fundamental problems that they have with nutrition and absenteeism and cost of service and all those things and then use this advanced technology to tackle those things and deliver better service to your customers as a result, That's really the opportunity. You don't have to give everything up and throw everything in the trash that you've been working on. But it's an opportunity to use emerging technology and new categories of technology to really rethink your business and get on that journey of transformation that I think ai is taking us on. Makes sense. Makes perfect sense. Michael, we like to put our audience to work a little bit and I'm wondering if there's anything that we can give them as an exercise, something that they can do when they're talking to their peers or their team, when they are on their zoom call or their teams call and stuff. You know, is there some type of an exercise that may give them insight into everything we're talking about. They could start to be thinking along these lines. Is there some type of an exercise? We can give them totally, and this will be a fun one. A lot of people in the context. Center World lot of leaders were agents at one point. And I think a big question that we're asking is do you have the right technology strategy to drive this transformative focus for your agents? So we've actually created a A little bit of a quiz, 10 questions to help companies and leaders assess how their current technology ranks and preparing for this next sort of generation of customer experience capabilities. You can go to your l I'm sure will be posted as well. But it's a bit lee slash science of C X bit dot l Y slash science of C X and go through the quiz and see what the results are. Perfect. Yeah. We'll also put that in the show notes to. Well we still have you here. Is there a way that people can get in touch with you or a SEP also that we can give them? Of course, yeah. Happy to talk to anyone anytime. And it doesn't have to be about technology. It can be about best practices and I have a great passion for the space and happy to engage at any time. They can reach out to be directly at ml my initials Michael lauder ml at a stop dot com. And if you want to talk to us, we would love to hear from you. Perfect. And again, the company is a set up A S A p p dot com. That's right, OK. Great. Well Michael, thank you very much for joining us today. This has been a great conversation and as I told you, we could probably go on for hours and we could solve all the problems of all the contact centers in no time. But unfortunately we're out of time now and hopefully we can get you back at some point in the future and we can continue the conversation. I would love that. Thank steve. It was great. Great. While everyone. That's another episode of the science of C. X. I'm steve Pappas your host and until we meet again next time please stay safe. Stay healthy and do take care. Bye! Everyone You've been listening to the science of C. X. My name is steve Pappas. I really hope you've enjoyed this episode and if you have the highest compliment that you can give us is to subscribe rate and review the science of C. X. Thanks. And we'll see you in the next episode. Mm Finding one place to see all customer experience related tools for technology has been difficult until now. We just built it. Get ready for a science of C. X. Original customer experience technology has been helping to drive businesses by giving them insights into better methods to engage and delight their customers for some time now. But if you're looking for C. X. Tech you have to search far and why to understand the whole landscape. C. X. Stash is your simple one stop directory of all the Great Sea X related technology you need. It breaks down all C. X. By collections like analytics, crm, journey mapping, voice of the customer, you ex customer support and more. It's free to create an account and use no advertising. Cluttering up your experience. Just one place to find all the Great Sea X. Tech. Sign up today at www dot C. X stash dot com